Talk:Matier
human ??? isn't she a demon ? Elveonora 22:47, December 9, 2011 (UTC) :Not a full one, for certain. They do say that Vie de Marli have demon blood, however how much of it she has is unknown. My signature is NOT short! 20:32, December 10, 2011 (UTC) ::Then why is she listed as human ? Elveonora 01:25, December 11, 2011 (UTC) :::Given the fact that its said that the clan Vie de Marli were half human, half demon, warriors who fought along side Sparda. It's even stated in the first couple of scenes of both Dante and Lucia's disks that she personally knew him. So I think it's safe to say she does have demon blood in her. Also lets not forget that its stated during Lucias story that Matier raised her and trained her to fight, again, adding to the strong possibility she is a human/demon hybrid like he is, just WAY into her old age. Ixbran (talk) 09:38, April 2, 2015 (UTC) ::::From what I remember it was not made clear in what way Vie de Marli have demon blood, for all we know they could have been something like ascended humans like knights of the Order were, which is a different category from demon/human hybrid like Dante. ::::Smoking gun (talk) 12:00, April 2, 2015 (UTC) :::::The Strategy Guide for DMC2 explicitly states the Protectorate (that's the clan name, not Vie de Marli. That's the land) are half human half demon devil hunters. 08:01,4/9/2015 ::::::Then perhaps we should update her profile to state that she is, in fact, half human and half demon. Ixbran (talk) 09:00, April 9, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I agree she should be given a different category from human, however I'd like it if someone could find a second source of this half human half demon thing to confirm it, since people who write strategy guides sometimes tend to be creative and make up things for canon. If there was an entire clan of strong warrior women born from human and demon (and demons had to even stick around for longer than one generation, if Matier, the last real descendant is half demon), then the relationship between Sparda and Eva and the two sons born from it loses considerably on the specialty other sources were trying to establish.Smoking gun (talk) 10:07, April 9, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Hmm...IF I remember well, they have devil blood in their veins, which means sometime ago, demons and humans mated, so Sparda/ Eva's union is no so exclusive as we may think.Gelsadra (talk) 16:10, April 9, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Maybe they were Sparda's harem as well as his special army? *waggles eyebrows* XD ::::::From the looks of it, they are basically Amazon warriors in DMC version. And that just leaves the question with whom did they do the deed, since demons are not that easily subdued and used as human males? If they did it, I still take booklets/guides alone as unreliable source, since I've seen stuff being made up for the sake of filling up pages. Smoking gun (talk) 16:44, April 9, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I don't recall Sparda and Evas union to be an unheard of thing. ::::::EDIT: Maybe the demons were women and they mates with human males. Lucia has the Guidepost for the Protector. How official is the strategy guide? LegionZero (talk) 18:42, April 9, 2015 (UTC) ::::::But where is it said Clan members must be or were only females: I don't recall such a mention about this and I read DMC2 booklets and manuals.I remember DMC3 Brady's Estrategy guide calls Lady psychotic and Capcom never called her such thing.DMC manga was official translated by Tokyo Pop and was a TOTAL departure from the original one. So...Gelsadra (talk) 19:00, April 9, 2015 (UTC) It just mentioned on Lucia's profile page in the strategy guide that Vive de Marli (Vidu Marl in it. I think it's a translation thing since it's description is the exact same as the Vive de Marli) was protected by a race/clan of half-demon women. Apparently, that's the clan Lucia keeps mentioning and that Matier and Lucia are members. Should I post pictures for you to read? To be honest, I feel everyone is thinking too hard on it. If we don't know about the technical detail, stop worrying about it. They can just choose members like Matier took Lucia in and she's consider a member for the clan. They probably just choose able half-demon women and they're consider in the clan. And this entire doubting information: stop! There's many ways for Capcom to add some background into the world of DMC. Either way, we're a wiki and have to acknowledge it in some format, not ignore. No matter what we think. It's not like the games are so in-depth. And the DMC3/Manga came before DMC2. Eveything much be looked at a CASE-TO-CASE basis. What one thing in DMC does doens't mean every single time a strategy guide says something, it's incorrect (Because they tend to double/triple confirm things. The DMC4 Strategy Guide provided all the info in the History of DMC section just fine). And If they called Lady psychotic, they maybe referring to her hatred for demons and not able to properly consider that people with demon blood aren't always bad. I don't know. I need more context. 19:38,4/9/2015 Do you doubt it? Lucia DMC2 Strategy Guide Info.PNG Dante DMC2 Strategy Guide Info.PNG Brady Capcom confirmation.PNG|Yes, it's from Capcom. If you're still unsure of this, I've decided to have pictures of it on the wiki for you to read for yourself for convenience. It does align with DMC2 stuff so I'm quite sure with this, it's accurate. The Dante's guide mentions the name. The Lucia guide gets more in-depth about them since Lucia is a fellow member. 19:55,4/9/2015 Is it info from Capcom? LegionZero (talk) 20:04, April 9, 2015 (UTC) Check the gallery. Yes. Their stamp is on it too! A company cannot make an OFFICIAL strategy guide without said game company's consent otherwise they'd get sued. That's how they get all the info in the first place behind the background and EVERYTHING! They have to ask Capcom for that. Legally, they cannot make up information because it's not their property. Otherwise, Capcom would of sued them. 20:10,4/9/2015 Right! Point taken! I've no objection related to this.Gelsadra (talk) 20:17, April 9, 2015 (UTC) :Thank you! I feel less like I'm the crazy guy on the wiki. Every time I add new information that wasn't known because I dare to get material outside games because I know from my experience of the Prince of Persia Wiki that video-games like revealing tidbit info to their official guides and stuff because you get to know information normal avid players don't and kinda a thank you for liking their material enough to want to know the secrets and context behind the story. :I felt people should be more like "Can I read this for myself?" and want to see this with their own eyes instead of "Is this official?" every time I say this might not be as inaccurate as thought or reveal new info in 2015 that's been lost since early 2000's. >_> But then use TVTropes as a source. :Besides, Why question me? Question Capcom's way of not revealing actual interesting information into their games and act like they got no idea on what to write next. You got a clan of devil hunting females and they only featured 2 in one game. They sound like DMC's Amazons from DC Comics. 20:34,4/9/2015 :Jay, I know what you feel since sometimes I feel it myself, but we have to see the other side: it's common people bring here lies or headcanons because they fit their daydreams and wishes.Since it became epidemic until sometime ago, it's natural most of us be suspicious of everything now. We're as ***holes, but with good intentions;-) : I just want to see their references LegionZero (talk) 20:56, April 9, 2015 (UTC) Understood. I just feel people are barking at the wrong tree, though (Don't shoot the messenger). And I already stated that I WILL actually look at things. And If you need confirmation cause suspicious, just as me to post a picture. But today, there's an entire discussion on the cloud of doubt cause it's from a guide. A guide that has Capcom's official stamp even. 21:13,4/9/2015 :If you ask me I think all this doubt is coming from people whon just don't want to associate Matier to Dante, Nero, and Virgil. so far all our Demon/Human Hybrids have been "bad ass, smart mouth, fighters", and suddenly we have this little old lady being grouped in with them, peoples masculinity guages suddenly are probably feeling threatened by it and are looking for reasons to keep her from being associated with them by using any excuse they can come up with. This combined with the fact that anything DMC2 related tends to instantly garner hate from the series fandom, and probably adds fuel to the fire. After all, you just provided proof that Matier is, indeed, considered a demon/human hybrid by providing material approved by Capcom them selves, and some are still asking for more proof. I say those people should just be ignored, and we can continue contributing to the wiki without bothering to even humor them. Ixbran (talk) 22:56, April 9, 2015 (UTC) :No, we are skeptical because there is a lot of speculation that likes to pop in the series. It doesn't matter if a woman is part demon, we have had full demon women in the series, and we like them. LegionZero (talk) 23:25, April 9, 2015 (UTC) ::Sorry to burst the bubble, but Bradygames guides are not fact-checked, and are not canon. They are not quite so bad as Prima, but are still rife with errors, and cannot be used as a source for canon. ::Capcom especially does not fact-check these guides -- they approve their publication, and sometimes give them pre-release access to the games and artwork, but that in no way makes their claims canon. The guides can, do, and have claimed a lot of things about characters that are misunderstandings, like getting major character's names wrong or other glaring errors. Here's a list from one of their newer guides, when they should be expected to know what they're doing. ::I've removed the human-demon claim from Matier and suggested deletion of the Protectorate, because they have no evidence in the actual canon. These things can be mentioned in trivia notes or ref notes, but absolutely should not ever be treated as canon.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully! 02:22, April 10, 2015 (UTC) :::Corrections: *The script says that the Vie de Marli fought the demons alongside Sparda, and were a clan that "possessed the blood of devils". This does not automatically mean every member possessed that blood. The game also says absolutely nothing about their gender. Matier also never makes any claim about personally knowing Sparda, just that she knows a story about him.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully! 02:25, April 10, 2015 (UTC) ::::You know, even if its just mentioned or hinted at, its better than nothing. Matier has gone on record saying she personally knew Sparda and that their clan fought alongside him at one point in time. Shes the leader of a clan that is said to have "the blood of the devils" that protects Vie de Marli. What the hell else could it mean, other than they have demon blood in their veins. What, THey collect demon blood in jars or something?! If this doesn't flat out say shes a human/demon hybrid, then what will? What, do you want the characters in the game to go Turbo, turn to the screen, and flat out tell you? There is in-game evidence, and official players guide references, clearly stating that this is in fact canon to the series. The only thing that could disprove it is if Capcom them selves made a statement about it, and I doubt that they would waste their time with us. Ixbran (talk) 02:32, April 10, 2015 (UTC) ::::"Something is better than nothing" isnt a reason to believe them. For all we know their "Something" is dead wrong. If they make errors like this they can't be held as a reliable source. He has provided legitimate evidence of their unreliability. There is no abuse of power here. It should be removed. LegionZero (talk) 02:57, April 10, 2015 (UTC) :Matier does not say that. The game script is easily findable on gamefaqs, do not make claims about what it says without due diligence. :Matier does not say she's the leader of the clan, ever. :A clan that "has the blood of devils" doesn't mean every member has it, and Matier is never stated to be a hybrid. What's more, the only reference to that is Lucia admitting she was mistaken about her heritage: "...I thought I was a descendant of the clan that protects Vie de Marli... the ones who have the blood of the devils..." There is ample reason to believe Matier tried to cover for Lucia's obvious abilities by claiming all of their ancestors had them -- it's basically part of the plot. :The in-game "evidence" is your interpretation. :The guide is not canon. It can be noted as trivia, or as a reference note, but cannot be treated as canon. :You need to provide actual citations. Negligence will not be permitted on this wiki, nor will personal attacks. Last warning.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully! 03:07, April 10, 2015 (UTC) Provide me a source that states Brady's Game Guides are inaccurate detailing Devil May Cry. As long as it has that Capcom official stamp on it, it will contradict this notion that it's "non-canon" or "not official". Not believing it doesn't warrant what is canon. They cannot just put down any info. You do realize in doing so, they can get in a lot of trouble? And also, the Game Guides for DMC have been actually consistent with info from games. Ever seen the DMC3 or DMC4 guide? The DMC4 Brady Guide even confirmed the timeline If you didn't see the interview that did so. Although things should be looked at case-to-case, they've been fine. This actual problem stems from the fact that people do not realize or have the mindset that DMC is not just a video-game and is a franchise. They will reveal all sorts of information beyond video-games. Just because it's not in the game doesn't make it non-canon. DMC has a anime, novel, and a manga. All should be looked at as a case-to-case basis in this "non-canon" debate. There should be a source detailing that it's non-canon. In some format, Capcom will say so by releasing a game that contradicts or actually stating it. As noted, it does run concurrent with the information just fine. They possess the blood of demons? The guide says they're half human and half demon. A lot of this info runs just fine. A lot of the "problems" is because I haven't finish editing the page and people jumping to conclusions because it happens to be a guide and not the game, despite the game referencing it and even running concurrent with information i the manual in addition. Sit down and take a breather and let the guy who started finish. Your questions will be answered. I've also planned to edit the Dumary Island and the Vie De Marli section so it all makes sense. This information that has to be detail for everyone to understand comes from the instruction manual, the game, and the strategy guide. I have to look at all three and make note of it somehow while it makes sense for you to understand. The game mentions these things but never explained. The instruction manual provides background. And the game guide provide inside details. That's why it's hard to understand right now. :And realize the context of things, too. The Lucia being a decedent? Sure, that's not technically true. But Matier states that while they're not related by blood, they're "related" by history and experience (or something like that. If you need an exact quote, I'll look). Adoptees are considers "descendants" still. Not in a literal sense. You're taking some of what's stated far too literal or not having all the conext. Since only I apparently have the game guide, I will do my best to have exact wording in my references. I tend to do that anyway. 20:22,4/10/2015 :JayAaerow, I'm sorry to be blunt, but in regards to the claim of Bradygames "getting in trouble", you're making things up. Bradygames depends on its reputation in order to keep on being selected as the "official" choice for guide-writers, but that's purely a licensing issue. There is no CAPCOM fact-checking team editing the guide, and Bradygames has as much of a record as anyone else in putting false claims in their "official" guides. I provided a full list of examples for Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep, which has the same "official" stamp. We simply cannot make the claim that the guide is canon. :Now, we absolutely can note what the guide says, but it's important that we're honest to our readers and clarify which parts are canon, and which parts are coming from licensed materials that are not definitely canon. The guide does not credit any Capcom staff with fact-checking, only Bradygames staff (see final page of guide). :As far as "demonstrate errors" -- they misspell the name of the setting over and over. They call it "Vidu Mali", consistently. :No, we should not be reinterpreting what the game and manual say to match the guide. We should be clearly citing information and noting the source of everything we say, as are the rules on any good wiki. :I've previously provided full transcriptions of the contents of the game's libraries and manuals to the wiki (see User:KrytenKoro/DMC2 Notes), and fact-checked nearly all of the Vie de Marli page. I've also checked the game script. The sole description of the protector clan is Lucia saying that she thought she was a descendant of a clan that possessed the blood of devils, but that she was wrong. It's possible that the clan itself possessed the blood of devils, but the source of that claim is, fundamentally, unreliable. It's a speaker explaining that they were lied to -- how can we make definite claims based on that? Even the section in the guide claiming this description of the clan is written as if Lucia was correct about her heritage, when a main plot point of the game is that she specifically was not! Why in heaven's name are we treating it as an absolute claim, then? It's written to avoid spoilers, not to be Word of Capcom. :As far as the clan being all-female, that is definitely not even nearly claimed anywhere in the game, nor anywhere in the manual or novel that I've seen. :Yes, you should be looking for exact quotes. That's one of the fundamental rules of a wiki, and admins are supposed to be setting the example. That's why most of my work on this wiki, while I was still active, consisted of gathering citations. :No, I'm not taking anything "far too literal" -- pretty much the opposite, in fact. I'm noting that the confirmed canon sources simply don't say what the editors are claiming they said -- that these claims only come from a source that is by definition non-canon. The guide is, in turn, apparently inventing a description of the Vie de Marli which is based on assuming they're all like Lucia, which we have absolutely no evidence of within the canon. When describing how Sparda helped protect the clan and the island, the script talks about Sparda "protecting humanity", so there's evidence of equivalent scale to Lucia's quote that the clan is humans -- but again, that's not explicit. :I would absolutely be supportive of listing Matier's race as "unknown", with a ref note clarifying what the game says, and what the guide says. But we cannot misrepresent which merchandise is canon and which is not.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully! 05:47, April 11, 2015 (UTC) Staff/stick Does her staff thing have a name?--Phantom Stranger (talk) 18:52, April 15, 2019 (UTC) :IIRC it was one of the arcana. LegionZero (talk) 19:14, April 15, 2019 (UTC)